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Relief in Focus: An Expert Firm’s CEO Discusses the Positioning and Marketing Platform Connection

Ecommerce Experts Focusing in Further

Command C is an ecommerce development firm split between New York and North Carolina. With many, many years of experience developing ecommerce sites, they’ve recently focused further, both horizontally and vertically.

In this episode of Expert Marketing Matters, Sara Bacon, CEO of Command C, joins Mark, Chris and Lauren for a conversation on how she has lead her firm into a new focus for a new kind of client.

You can listen to the episode using the player embedded above, or you can read a full transcript below.

Episode Transcript

Chris Butler: Welcome to Expert Marketing Matters. I’m Chris Butler.

Lauren McGaha: I’m Lauren McGaha.

Mark O’Brien: And I’m Mark O’Brien.

Sara Bacon: And I’m Sara Bacon.

Chris Butler: Sara Bacon!?

Lauren McGaha: What?

Sara Bacon: It’s true.

Mark O’Brien: Live in studio.

Lauren McGaha: Who is Sara Bacon?

Chris Butler: Who is Sara Bacon?

Sara Bacon: I’m the founder of Command C. We are newly a ecommerce rescue agency for wearable brands. Command C is not new, but our new positioning is.

Mark O’Brien: Can you say that again for our listening audience?

Sara Bacon: Ecommerce rescue for wearable brands.

Mark O’Brien: Yeah.

Chris Butler: I like it. I like the sound of it, and we brought you here to talk about that. We’ve been working with you for a number of months now, and that has been a process for you all discovering how to further refine your positioning. And we were batting it around internally the idea of having you join the podcast, mostly because I think the story is really interesting from a positioning standpoint. Something we talk about a lot and how that leads to refining what we do with our clients, all of the different marketing programs. And also because you’re starting this dabble of podcasting, you and your firm, and so I thought it’d be a really interesting experience for you as you’re building that, and for us to do this conversation to see where it goes.

So I guess I’ll just tee it off by by saying that the positioning element what you just shared is new, but what is new about it? What is the new angle for Command C?

Sara Bacon: The new angle is claiming rescue and wearable brands. So several years ago now, I think in early 2015, we focused solely on ecommerce. We’ve gone through several focusing iterations over time, and within kind of the bucket of ecommerce, we’ve also positioned around certain platforms, but the new part is getting even more laser-focused with industry vertical and the kind of services that we typically perform.

Chris Butler: Yeah. I think what’s really interesting that we were talking about is you know we’ve talked about on this podcast before, positioning being a matter of sort of getting those crosshairs right, you know horizontal and a vertical. Horizontal being that thing that you do and the vertical being the audience, but you also have a contextual element to your positioning that I think even further refines a horizontal being you know you could look at it and say, “Well, the horizontal is ecommerce.” And also for the listeners you mean development, your dev shop. But also the context, this idea of rescue and what does that mean. So I would love to hear more about that.

Sara Bacon: The website world is a big world, right? And there historically exist these kind of like a big bucket creative agencies that do everything from A to Z. and that’s never really been us, but there have been times where I felt like we should be that. And that has never worked well for us. So at a certain point in time I got very clear that being all of the things wasn’t the right direction. We’re really, really, really good at what we do, but what we do is very specific. At a certain point in time, instead of trying to kind of meld ourselves to do all of the things or actually I think a better way to put it is to take all of the opportunities.

I got very clear that we’re going to say no to most of the opportunities, and really only do the thing that we’re really good at doing. And what we’re really good at doing that differentiates us from other companies is dealing with businesses that are in crisis mode from a development standpoint. And there are a lot of companies that don’t want to touch that kind of a project and we figured out a way to do that really well. And so just kind of stepping into the authenticity of that has been something we’ve decided to claim.

Mark O’Brien: Yeah. I think that’s just so interesting, and that is the story of every firm’s positioning journey, what you just said, right? Everything. And so then we talk about all the time is that it’s this idea of the pursuit of the truth, right? So many firms want to be the big firm. I was speaking with my buddy, Carl, the other day about the bureau world, and how many firms there just want to be huge. [inaudible] huge, and they adopt all kinds of practices to do what huge does, but they’re not huge. They’re not going to be huge. And huge didn’t get to be huge by mimicking somebody else, they got to be huge by being themselves.

And bigger is oftentimes perceived as better, and that’s a fallacy, all of it. And to be really honest about it, well there’s market pressure that’s implied like almost market peer pressure to be like these large firms, who are perceived as being very successful, which oftentimes not behind the scenes. And it’s really hard to actively work to not fall into that trap and to actually say, “Who are we really? What should we be doing?” It requires a great deal of self-awareness, a firm’s self-awareness, which is weird, and discipline. And so it’s great that you went with that path. And then you have the clarity to talk about it so simply.

Sara Bacon: Yeah. I mean that said, you know simplicity comes from a process of …

Chris Butler: Oh yeah.

Sara Bacon: … non-simplicity, complexity. So it’s taken a lot to peel back the onion, so to speak, and it’s been very incremental, and I don’t know if it’s going to work, you know I didn’t really thought this thing up here yet. But what I can say is that every time we focus more, it feels a bit like jumping off a cliff, it’s a little terrifying, but there’s relief in the focus. And I think that, that relief in the focus is par and part because we aren’t huge. We’re not the agency that thrives by having everything and every different department kind of fall under the spectrum of what we offer. We’re really, really good at this kind of … We’re really good at this particular kind of relationship is what it comes down to, because I think we have a high emotional IQ, then we can execute that because we’re good at that kind of a relationship, and we’ve discovered that.

Lauren McGaha: It’s a brave decision to continue to pursue this journey of focus, and it’s interesting to say … I like how you put that the relief is in the focus. And did you find that as you started to go down this road and make these decisions that, that was true for your team as well, or did you have to kind of work to bring people into alignment?

Sara Bacon: Well, we’re still very much in this process, but I think that my team trust me because I’ve made a similar jump before when we focus solely on ecommerce and they’ve seen the benefits that, that has brought. So I think that they probably experienced a little bit of consideration. I think the thing that comes up is, “Oh, but we have clients who are not in this space.” And that’s okay we’re not going to kick those clients out, and we’ll still work with clients who aren’t you know … I think explaining that what you all have kind of helped me to understand, that positioning doesn’t mean you don’t get to work with anyone that you decide you want to work with, it’s just how you manufacture the way you represent yourself in the world to really land with a particular type of audience.

Chris Butler: It’s a different theme what you are pursuing publicly and what you might end up doing. You know we’ve seen that among ourselves and our clients as well. You can express a certain positioning, that doesn’t mean that you won’t get inquiries from people that are outside of that. In some cases, you even get more because focus is attractive and it allows you to demonstrate an expertise that you might have a harder time demonstrating, if you’re trying to position yourselves more generally. So yeah, there’s certainly truth to that, that just because you say you’re this kind of company doesn’t mean that you’ll never do work outside of that space again.

Mark O’Brien: The other side of that in regard to the existing client base and one of those objections to get from your employees, which is a very typical objection. I’m not saying that’s never happened, but I’ve never heard in all of these years of working with firms, one story of a client firing an agency because they didn’t feel like they fit inside of what was stated in the homepage now. I’ve never heard that story. It may have happened, but I’ve never heard of one instance of that happening. It’s just not the case, but it’s a reasonable objection. There are many reasonable objections, but there more reasonable counters to all of them. That’s so far as we’ve seen at least.

Sara Bacon: Yeah. It’s kind of like you know, does the risk outweigh the benefits? And every time I have focus, there’s been great benefit behind it.

Mark O’Brien: Yeah. And we’re in the middle of running a white paper right now about the obstacles to marketing, and one of the primary obstacles is vision and alignment in focus. It’s like a three tiered obstacle. And what we write about in that white paper is that the antidote to those things is leadership. And that’s you, and you’re saying, “Okay. We’re going here.” And firms with strong leaders are able to do this, because there’s always going to be internal push back of wide variety.

Lauren McGaha: Sure, and it’s also helpful that you’re pursuing what’s true. You haven’t just grab something out of thin air and passed it down like this command from on high that, “Okay. We’re going to be this thing now.” You’ve been really thoughtful in this decision to observe, “Okay. We are seasoned experts. We have a lot of experience. What are the patterns that illuminate the truth of this organization?” And I would imagine that makes gaining alignment among your team a little bit easier as well. [silence]

Yeah. It’s a truth you’re already living in a lot of ways.

Chris Butler: One thing that I find attractive about the way you’re describing your positioning moving forward, this is colored by my experience with the way Newfangled used to be as a dev shop, and what we would do and what we wouldn’t do, is this idea of rescue, it takes a certain kind of person and a certain kind of company to one, be willing to do that kind of work. It also takes a certain kind of person, a certain kind of company to say that they need it. And I think like the meeting of those two is really an interesting element, speaking of what you just said about personality traits because any developer can create something new, when they don’t have anything to compare to, or maybe they’re working with a team that has never experienced that before. Like the first website for a company is very different fees, but coming into something that already exists where the company realizes that it’s a problem, it’s not performing or it’s not functioning, that’s a totally different scenario, and probably in many cases require a higher level of expertise than creating something that didn’t exist before that.

So when we’ve been talking about this behind the scenes, I was thinking, but I didn’t say, “Wow! If I knew what I was looking for, I would find that very compelling for those reasons.”

Mark O’Brien: In our previous lives as web developer here at Newfangled, we had two rules about … Like there’s project that really we weren’t capable to take on, I talked to you about this before. One was ecommerce and two was inheriting someone else’s work.

Chris Butler: Having someone else’s code was always …

Mark O’Brien: And you’ve made a specialization of doing precisely what we could not do.

Sara Bacon: This position maybe the death of our positioning, maybe the death of us. Yet to be determined, but …

Mark O’Brien: In our very first conversation, a long time ago, you’ve said that we were really, really good at inheriting messy problems. And that is so unique. Very, very few firms want to do that. The fact that you not only want to, you’re not doing it because no one else wants it, you’re doing it because you’re good at it.

Sara Bacon: Yeah.

Mark O’Brien: And that’s very exciting to make because there’s definitely users across. There’s I think significant market opportunity there.

It really is. You said the crosshairs positioning [inaudible] layers like a 3D positioning. I would-

Chris Butler: The context.

Mark O’Brien: The context really is quite intriguing and very few firms too go that far.

Chris Butler: Right. Being able to offer stability in that context, which is really what you’re talking about I think it’s highly interesting. And again, I feel optimistic about this choice on your behalf because knowing what we experience in the past, opportunities that we turned down as a company because those were are non-negotiables. Like we’re not going to inherit someone else’s code. Yeah, we’re not really that good at ecom either. Like those two things, there’s a lot of opportunity. There’s a lot of broken stores out there. So I think it’s really fascinating, but there’s an element of your positioning we have not discussed yet, which is this wearable brands element, which is also new. And I’d love to hear more about where that’s coming from and what that means.

So we’ve explained rescue I think to some degree, but what does wearable brands mean and what does that mean to you all as organization?

Sara Bacon: Wearable brands means literally anything you can wear. So you know from the most straightforward apparel, clothing, footwear to wearable technology, to skincare and beauty, to …

Mark O’Brien: Backpacks?

Sara Bacon: … backpacks. Yeah.

Chris Butler: And glasses?

Sara Bacon: Yeah. So we we keep that pretty loose, but there are some commonalities with something you can actually wear that again, further allows us to specialize and focus and get to know the ins-and-outs of the problems that those companies are typically dealing with.

Chris Butler: That makes a lot of sense. Like the fulfillment related issues that you would have to deal with in the transaction. That’s the kinds of bundling that might happen-

Mark O’Brien: Sizing.

Chris Butler: Yeah. All that stuff.

Sara Bacon: Returns, sizing. Yup.

Mark O’Brien: Again, all the stickiest stuff. I remember-

Chris Butler: The stuff that we have [crosstalk].

Lauren McGaha: I wish our listeners could see Mark’s face right now. It’s turning green, as you can-

Mark O’Brien: I just knew the pain of when we tried a few of those projects years and years and years ago, and I get that. That’s really complicated stuff.

Sara Bacon: Yeah, but if you were only doing that, it enables you to get really good at it. Right? You know what I mean?

Mark O’Brien: That’s the whole point of positioning.

Sara Bacon: Ecommerce is a very complex thing. So in a way part of the positioning is just born out of like the nature that ecommerce is so complex, so how can we make sure that we’re really good at what we’re really good at. This, all things to everyone … You know I get agencies reaching out to me all the time because they took out on an ecommerce project that they can’t build, and it’s like, doesn’t typically go that well. Even if you get it off the ground, it’s like it’s typically not that successful.

Mark O’Brien: Yeah. The other think you mentioned a few minutes ago that struck me was you know, “Well, we’ll see if it’s going to work.” But Lauren, as you echoed, the relief in the focus and the journey of it. Like you’ve committed to the journey, you understand it’s a constant journey, and that’s definitely one of the truth we’ve seen at positioning is that it’s never ever done. And in three years, there’s going to be a spin on this. There’s going to be some angle to this that you don’t have right now, because you simply can’t see those patterns yet, but entering into this in a really concerned way, as you are, you’re going to see new opportunities.

Sara Bacon: I think it also enables us to step into more confidence, right? It’s like we get to be like yeah we know this thing rather be like, “Yeah. We can probably do that.”

Mark O’Brien: Right.

Sara Bacon: You know?

Mark O’Brien: Right. Yeah.

Sara Bacon: Which is appealing, both internally and I think in terms of attracting clients.

Mark O’Brien: Well, yeah confidence, which comes from mastery, which comes from repeated processes, right? And something we talk about a lot is so many firms of all sizes, as part of their sales pitch, they say, “Well, we’ll get to know your business better than you will.” And that’s total BS. That’s never ever ever ever ever ever going to happen ever, but what should be the case, like the table stake’s out of the gate is that you know their industry way better than they do. And so that’s the kind of expertise you already have, and you’re just going to allow to be discovered now by others, because you understand the ins-and-outs and do’s and don’ts of so many things related to ecommerce of wearable brands, that those individuals companies just are totally clueless about it. So you can be confident, but from the very first conversation you have with them, you’re going to start rattling things off that are just second nature to you, that are going to be epiphanies to them. Like every sentence out your mouth is going to be striking awe.

Sara Bacon: Yeah that, and I think we can also be confident in what we don’t do, which is also really important, and I think very much like in my experience with Newfangled. Like there are certain things that we won’t do. Like we will never advise on what ERP to select because exactly like you just said Mark, we know we’re never going to know that client’s business better than that client knows their business. That’s an internal business choice that they have to make. We can talk about some ERPs that we’ve integrated with and talk about how to make that integration happen, but we know what decisions you need to make and we know where we’re comfortable and where it’s appropriate to advise. And I think that’s a sign of maturity in an agency.

Again, I go back to these kind of broad-strokes companies or these young companies and they’re just like, “Yeah, we’ll do that. We’ll do that. We’ll do that.” And that just scares the bejesus out of me.

Mark O’Brien: But at the beginning that’s what you do, right?

Chris Butler: You learn sometimes.

Sara Bacon: Yeah. You got to fumble through that for sure, but I’m sure as heck glad not to be there anymore.

Chris Butler: Yeah. It might be one way people gain confidence over time. It’s definitely not one way to demonstrate it, and it’s interesting we’re talking about confidence and all of the things that you know from your experience that your clients would need to know might be suffering from all that, that’s going to be very compelling to them in a conversation. It’s similar to how we were talking about back in the day when we used to say no to those kinds of projects. We were really good at giving those clients, or those prospective clients a third-degree to get them to know. Like, “What about this? What about this? What about this? What about this?” And then it’s like, “Yeah. We can’t do this.” That’s a certain level of confidence, but it all presumes that you have the conversation, that you have that person enter in or not.

I love to shift the focus a little bit to talking about how do you even get that to happen? Because your express positioning, this idea of ecommerce rescue and wearable brands, wearable brands sounds like a message that I think you could put out into the world and people in that context would say, “Yeah. That’s me.” But ecommerce rescue, I think is one that we’ve had some conversations about that’s a little trickier. Someone who’s in that situation, they know they’ve got a problem, and if you have the ability to connect with them, you’re good. The question is how do you get people to … How do you build messaging around that? How do you build marketing around that idea, and make sure that it lands with the right people at the right time so that they can self-identify with it, they can recognize it, and it can recognize that that’s a conversation we need to have? Everything that you’re doing, Lauren, talking about message areas of focus and things like that, born out of that idea. I’d love to hear you guys talk about that because I think that’s a real complexity. that probably similar and analogous to what people listening to this would be facing on their own.

Sara Bacon: Yeah. I mean I can talk about what we’re trying to do so I don’t know if it’s going to work yet, but what we’re trying to do is very quickly supplement that tagline with additional clarifications about what we mean by that. Being very straightforward about the specific tactical things that we do and we don’t do. And you know both our landing pages and our positioning pages …

Lauren McGaha: Yeah. That’s something I’ve been really struck by in working through this messaging exercise with you, is your confidence and clarity around “the what we don’t do” piece of this because I think that’s something that a lot of firms are hesitant to put into writing. It’s one thing to get internal clarity and internal alignment around your positioning and around things like, “Okay. We’re not going to take on projects like this.” But often when the rubber hits the road and that opportunity comes knocking, it’s really hard to turn it away. And it’s a different level of commitment to that positioning when you put it in writing the way that you are on the site to say, “These are our core competencies, and this falls outside of you know what we would be best to take on.”

Sara Bacon: Yeah. I was thinking about this earlier actually, and that is a very valid point. And then there’s another point, which is just that attracting the wrong leads is expensive.

Lauren McGaha: Yeah.

Sara Bacon: You know like really expensive. When you’re committing to marketing and making an investment in marketing like before making this investment and commitment to our marketing and positioning, the cost of attracting the wrong lead was not quite as high as it is now. And also it’s really annoying.

Chris Butler: It’s not a good use of time.

Sara Bacon: It’s not a good use of time, you know. And so I feel really hell-bent that if we’re doing this work, we’re going to attract the right leads.

Lauren McGaha: Yeah. And it’s interesting watching you kind of shepherd that process because this whole positioning journey has been an exercise and specificity and consistency as it kind of distills down to your marketing platform and your marketing strategy. And you’ve really been at the helm of all of that. And even with you leading the discussions around the overall positioning in the firm, it’s still taken a lot of effort and energy to make sure that, that perspective is consistently applied once we get into the digital marketing side of this.

Sara Bacon: It’s so difficult and par and part because definitions aren’t consistent. Like we talked about the word optimization a lot, like that’s a really big word. And we do a very specific part of optimization. We don’t drive traffic to sites. We help once a user on the site and we help solve technical complexities, but we really have to explain that so that we’re not attracting clients who really need an SEO agency. There a lot of nuances to the language we use in this field.

Lauren McGaha: And that’s informed the content strategy overall because you know when we think about a messaging area of focus of your plan that might focus on optimization, the kinds of topics that we would ideate inside of that category are going to be very specifically tailored to your flavor of that. So when people are searching online and they’re maybe discovering that content organically, we’re making sure that we’re pointing at that messaging at the right kinds of people.

Sara Bacon: Yeah. And that brings up a little bit for me the question you asked earlier about like push back from the team. If there’s any sort of push back I think if anything it comes up in this department because I’m constantly shooting down ideas, because they’re not spot-on with what we’re going for.

Mark O’Brien: And the way you described positioning as a process of whittling away, that same thing is true on the prospect experience side. When they get to your site, they might have a 10x version of what you do in terms of the focus. Like, “Okay, what could this be?” And through your content, you whittle away, “No, not here, but here. Not here, but here. Not here, but here.” Over the course of a few sessions, they really get a sense for what you do. And then through your outbound strategy, they’re just kept up to speed with that, and the whole angle here is that they just understand exactly when the right time is to call because they’re so familiar with what it is you do, who you are, and specifically what problems you solve. But when the expertise is deep as yours, it takes a lot of content, you can’t write a paragraph, and all these articles, all these different approaches to describe the subtle but incredibly important nuance is required for the right type of person to be able to self-identify.

Sara Bacon: Yeah.

Chris Butler: On that note, I’m curious what’s an example that you all have started to work through? So for instance, we’re talking about this idea of rescue, and if you had an ability to sit down with somebody and ask a bunch of questions, and talk them through a situation you pretty easily get to a consensus, whether or not it’s a good fit, whether or not you can help them, but someone might think, “Oh, my store is broken because I’m not getting enough people to it.” That’s not a problem you solved. Like what’s an example of a topic or even a headline that you’re trying to maybe land in somebody’s inbox, that they would be able to read and say, “Yes, that’s for me.” That you’ve been able to bridge that gap?

Lauren McGaha: You know I think … So we’re still getting into the details around specific topics inside the messaging strategy, but I think this overall concept of how to define optimization for our particular audience is a great example of what we’re talking about here. Because as Sara pointed out, people to find that in many, many different ways, and there are firms who hang their hat on that is what they do. We are a CRO firm, and we have to be really careful inside of your messaging strategy to be very specific about how we’re defining that particular word and the topics that would come out of that messaging category. We’re going to be very different than what the true CRO firm is talking about, when they’re referring to optimization.

Sara Bacon: Yeah. It’s so tricky because we do impact conversion.

Chris Butler: Of course.

Sara Bacon: You know, but from a very technical perspective. So I think everything for us comes back to like the technicalities of it. Sometimes you know I don’t know if I can give you an exact topic, but what I can say the characteristics of it are that it’s technical in nature. Like we’re not talking … We don’t have articles that are focused on UX. We don’t have articles that our focus on SEO. Our articles, the heart of them come from solving the technical, the underlying technical needs.

Lauren McGaha: And we’ve seen that manifest itself even in the types of content that we are incorporating into the plan. Chris mentioned at the beginning of our conversation today that you’re starting to dabble with podcasting, and when we started putting together the plan for the identity of that podcast, all of this comes into play. Now when you’re thinking about the identity of that podcast, the purpose of it, the mission of it, all of these positioning conversations are relevant.

Sara Bacon: Yeah. Absolutely.

Chris Butler: What is the name of the podcast? And do you have the positioning statement for the podcast committed to memory?

Sara Bacon: I do have the name. It’s tricky. It’s called Recommerce.

Chris Butler: Yeah, which I really like. I like that name a lot.

Sara Bacon: And the tagline is, “A podcast for ecommerce wearable brands navigating technical complexity and change.”

Chris Butler: There you go.

Lauren McGaha: Beautiful.

Mark O’Brien: Well done.

Chris Butler: Which I think says a lot about what you are all just discussing, in terms of laser focus on the the nature of the context. The context being for you all and expressing your positioning rescue, but what do you actually mean by that. And so navigating the technical complexity I think gets them into different focus entirely, which I think is great.

Lauren McGaha: I think it also speaks the importance of your role in this whole journey. It’s interesting again, just the consistent application of the positioning decision once the positioning decision has been made. It’s really important, and it’s taken a lot of your energy and effort to make sure that, that remains true from the point of, “Okay. This is the positioning statement on the site” to, “this is the mission statement for the new type of content that’s going to be inside of our marketing plan.”

Sara Bacon: Yeah.

Lauren McGaha: So I think for other firms that are kind of navigating this journey, it’s just important to keep that in mind, that somebody who really has that clarity on what the positioning is going to be is also quite involved in the practical decisions that are made around the marketing.

Chris Butler: Yeah. That’s what we were talking about when we discuss the idea of you coming in here is that what’s really the story here, and the story is that positioning begins this journey of specificity. And that journey goes all the way down to whether or not somebody is going to write a blog post and what that blog post is going to be about. It’s like you know for the last decade, everyone says content it’s king, which is like something that drives me up the wall. I hate that phrase, but positioning really is in that regard in the sense that there’s no decision you’re going to make in the future of your business that doesn’t trace back to that decision. And or in other words, you know isn’t subject to that decision. That decision is in charge of making demands on every other little detail that you might adjudicate in the future.

Sara Bacon: Yeah. That’s such a good point and one that I hadn’t really thought through, but it’s really true. And I think that what you’re saying is just kind of crystallizing for me how much tighter of a ship we’re going to have organically because of that underpinning.

Mark O’Brien: I just want to wrap by just saying how impressive is that the way you have led Command C. You’ve led a lot of really difficult choices and decisions, and not all of them were cleared. Lauren just said, you describe it so simply and I wasn’t saying it is simple at all, I’m saying the fact that you were able to describe this simply was really quite impressive because it’s hard to wrap up in a nutshell like that, but because you believed it, you can. And you just made a lot of really courageous decisions, and your team’s following you.

Sara Bacon: Well, thanks. I appreciate that.

Mark O’Brien: Well, it’s the truth, right? And they are. And that’s also the moral of the story too, that leaders of firms, they come in all varieties, are going to get pushed back on these tough decisions. That’s how it goes. It’s never going to be, “Oh yeah. Let’s go ahead and let’s do it” for the whole crew, ever, ever, ever, ever, but you know those people are working with you and for you for a reason, and they’re going to follow your lead ultimately. And if they’re not, then chances are pretty good that they’re not the right fit for the firm anyway.

Sara Bacon: Yeah. Totally. I absolutely trust in that. And I mean the fortunate thing that I think we have going for us in this space that touches technology even in so far as Newfangled touches technology is that like, it’s just a given that like you adopt or you die. And we’ve done this for almost 15 years, and so that’s just a part of you know that’s the fabric of who we are, is just constant adapting and iterating. And so I think that that’s going for us not to undermine what you’re saying. I appreciate that, and I think that’s where you grow is where you take leaps of faith, educated leaps of faith. And just be willing to do kind of the thing that feels scary has always paid off for me. And each time you do that, it builds on the last experience and strengthens that muscle.

Mark O’Brien: Amen.

Chris Butler: Absolutely. Sara, this has been a real pleasure having you with us. Thank you so much.

Sara Bacon: Thank you so much.

Chris Butler: People who are listening, maybe there are people out there who need to be rescued, I want to give you an opportunity, where can they learn more about you and what you’re firm does?

Sara Bacon: At

Chris Butler: Awesome. All right, you heard it here first folks. If you need rescue, call up Sara and her crew.

Sara Bacon: Not personally.

Mark O’Brien: Maybe.

Chris Butler: Thanks again Sara.

Sara Bacon: All right. Thank you.